Plato Republic 340a-b
Nicole Kiernan /
- Created on 2024-04-18 13:17:56
- Modified on 2024-04-22 12:42:48
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Ἑλληνική Transliterate
English
ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽ , ἔφη , ὦ Σώκρατες , ὁ Πολέμαρχος , σαφέστατά γε .
ἐὰν σύ γ᾽ , ἔφη , αὐτῷ μαρτυρήσῃς , ὁ Κλειτοφῶν ὑπολαβών .
καὶ τί , ἔφη , δεῖται μάρτυρος ; αὐτὸς γὰρ Θρασύμαχος ὁμολογεῖ τοὺς μὲν ἄρχοντας ἐνίοτε ἑαυτοῖς κακὰ προστάττειν , τοῖς δὲ δίκαιον εἶναι ταῦτα ποιεῖν .
τὸ γὰρ τὰ κελευόμενα ποιεῖν , ὦ Πολέμαρχε , ὑπὸ τῶν ἀρχόντων δίκαιον εἶναι ἔθετο Θρασύμαχος .
καὶ γὰρ τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος , ὦ Κλειτοφῶν , συμφέρον δίκαιον εἶναι ἔθετο . ταῦτα δὲ ἀμφότερα θέμενος ὡμολόγησεν αὖ ἐνίοτε τοὺς κρείττους τὰ αὑτοῖς ἀσύμφορα κελεύειν τοὺς ἥττους τε καὶ ἀρχομένους ποιεῖν . ἐκ δὲ τούτων τῶν ὁμολογιῶν οὐδὲν μᾶλλον τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον δίκαιον ἂν εἴη ἢ τὸ μὴ συμφέρον .
ἀλλ᾽ , ἔφη ὁ Κλειτοφῶν , τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον ἔλεγεν ὃ ἡγοῖτο ὁ κρείττων αὑτῷ συμφέρειν : τοῦτο ποιητέον εἶναι τῷ ἥττονι , καὶ τὸ δίκαιον τοῦτο ἐτίθετο .
ἀλλ᾽ οὐχ οὕτως , ἦ δ᾽ ὃς ὁ Πολέμαρχος , ἐλέγετο .
ἐὰν σύ γ᾽ , ἔφη , αὐτῷ μαρτυρήσῃς , ὁ Κλειτοφῶν ὑπολαβών .
καὶ τί , ἔφη , δεῖται μάρτυρος ; αὐτὸς γὰρ Θρασύμαχος ὁμολογεῖ τοὺς μὲν ἄρχοντας ἐνίοτε ἑαυτοῖς κακὰ προστάττειν , τοῖς δὲ δίκαιον εἶναι ταῦτα ποιεῖν .
τὸ γὰρ τὰ κελευόμενα ποιεῖν , ὦ Πολέμαρχε , ὑπὸ τῶν ἀρχόντων δίκαιον εἶναι ἔθετο Θρασύμαχος .
καὶ γὰρ τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος , ὦ Κλειτοφῶν , συμφέρον δίκαιον εἶναι ἔθετο . ταῦτα δὲ ἀμφότερα θέμενος ὡμολόγησεν αὖ ἐνίοτε τοὺς κρείττους τὰ αὑτοῖς ἀσύμφορα κελεύειν τοὺς ἥττους τε καὶ ἀρχομένους ποιεῖν . ἐκ δὲ τούτων τῶν ὁμολογιῶν οὐδὲν μᾶλλον τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον δίκαιον ἂν εἴη ἢ τὸ μὴ συμφέρον .
ἀλλ᾽ , ἔφη ὁ Κλειτοφῶν , τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον ἔλεγεν ὃ ἡγοῖτο ὁ κρείττων αὑτῷ συμφέρειν : τοῦτο ποιητέον εἶναι τῷ ἥττονι , καὶ τὸ δίκαιον τοῦτο ἐτίθετο .
ἀλλ᾽ οὐχ οὕτως , ἦ δ᾽ ὃς ὁ Πολέμαρχος , ἐλέγετο .
"
Yes
,
by
Zeus
,
Socrates
,
"
said
Polemarchus
,
"
nothing
could
be
more
conclusive
.
"
" Of course , " said Cleitophon , breaking in , " if you are his witness . "
" What need is there of a witness ? " Polemarchus said . " Thrasymachus himself admits that the rulers sometimes enjoin what is evil for themselves and yet says that it is just for the subjects to do this . "
" That , Polemarchus , is because Thrasymachus laid it down that it is just to obey the orders of the rulers . "
" Yes , Cleitophon , but he also took the position that the advantage of the stronger is just . And after these two assumptions he again admitted that the stronger sometimes bid the inferior and their subjects do what is to the disadvantage of the rulers . And from these admissions the just would no more be the advantage of the stronger than the contrary . "
" O well , " said Cleitophon , " by the advantage of the superior he meant what the superior supposed to be for his advantage . This was what the inferior had to do , and that this is the just was his position . "
" That isn ' t what he said , " replied Polemarchus .
" Of course , " said Cleitophon , breaking in , " if you are his witness . "
" What need is there of a witness ? " Polemarchus said . " Thrasymachus himself admits that the rulers sometimes enjoin what is evil for themselves and yet says that it is just for the subjects to do this . "
" That , Polemarchus , is because Thrasymachus laid it down that it is just to obey the orders of the rulers . "
" Yes , Cleitophon , but he also took the position that the advantage of the stronger is just . And after these two assumptions he again admitted that the stronger sometimes bid the inferior and their subjects do what is to the disadvantage of the rulers . And from these admissions the just would no more be the advantage of the stronger than the contrary . "
" O well , " said Cleitophon , " by the advantage of the superior he meant what the superior supposed to be for his advantage . This was what the inferior had to do , and that this is the just was his position . "
" That isn ' t what he said , " replied Polemarchus .